Debate with an Atheist About Hell – John Boruff

Originally from here.

John Boruff

1:10:55 – “In that low place you’re going, you’ll never be cool again.” Like a kid song. So funny.

Toasty McGrath

A rather cavalier attitude toward torture.

JB

A rather cavalier comment.

TM

How so? I was merely rebuking this preacher for praising a god torturing people for eternity. Indeed, it speaks volumes about how ethically bankrupt his religion is.

JB

Maybe you can show him how to REALLY do evangelism. I’d love to see your example.

Oh so your one of those arrogant smart guy atheists who thinks he’s more righteous than God and more wise than Scripture. You just lost my respect then. Jesse Morrell lacks many qualities of perfection, but that is no indictment against his decade of evangelistic experience. No wonder why you would senselessly attack “his religion.” I thought you were a Christian evangelist for a moment. But God says you’re just a fool, because you are denying the obvious evidence of the natural world that God put everything here by divine design (Romans 1–its a chapter in the Bible).

ROMANS 1:18-21:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness (ATHEISM) and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

TM

No, I’m just your average Joe citizen who recognizes that EVERYBODY is more righteous than the Biblical god. No person who has ever existed could be less moral than the god of Abraham. It’s not arrogant, it’s humble.

JB

Argue until you’re blue in the face. You’re still obviously wrong. Trees didn’t make themselves. God did. He made you too. Stop denying the obvious; also, stop denying the justice of God; and don’t read the Bible with a rebellious self-willed heart, but with one that fears and trembles at the thought of Judgment Day. If you have intellectual hang-ups about the Bible, then try reading Norman Geisler’s When Critics Ask. Its a good book.

TM

We know where trees come from. No magic is necessary.

And eternal torture is not justice. Thankfully, there is no reason to believe that this Hell place even exists.

JB

Notice you brush away the thoughts of God and Hell with the stroke of a pen. If I were a lawyer, I would hate for you to be working in the same law office as me.

I can give you hundreds of reasons. Read Hell Under Fire edited by Christopher Morgan. Maybe then you wouldn’t flick Hell away so easily.

TM

Okay, give me your best reason.

JB

The eternal wrath of the all-righteous God must be eternally expressed (most perfectly by fire)–at the eternally offensive thing called sin.

TM

That’s not justice then, it’s just malice and cruelty.

I mean, the fact that you’re defending torture proves my point about this religion of yours being morally bankrupt. It’s completely poisoned your thinking.

JB

Sin, therefore, is not poisonous in your thinking.

Hell is God’s eternal punishment for sin for all those who will not by faith turn from sin and accept the punishment of Christ’s cross as a satisfaction for the wrath of God.

You call it “malice and cruelty” for God to respond to sin by means of Hell.

Sin, therefore, is not poisonous in your thinking, but Hell (which is the most perfect expression of punishment for sin) is–sounds like you are not only a sinner, but are trying your utmost to logically defend all sinful behavior.

TM

“Sin” is a fairy tale concept as far as I am convinced. But even if it was not, it would still not excuse the crime of eternal torture.

So why do you choose to worship a god of eternal torture?

JB

Very clever sounding. Just make a postulation that sin is a fairy tale. However, very illogical.

Because I know Him by the reality of His Spirit; and also, that He is infinitely more Moral than all your petty arguments. I am not persuaded by your line of reasoning either.

TM

So he is infinitely moral, yet commits a heinously immoral act.

JB

Toasty, I have already toasted your logic by showing that sin is never excusable, especially in eternity. I believe I have reduced you to repeating yourself; because you have lost the argument. Sin never wins! Therefore, turn away from sin and put your faith in Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross! Then God will forgive your sins! This is good news, my friend. I, for one, know that there is a Hell by faith and the witness of the Holy Spirit; and I don’t want you to go there.

TM

Okay, so it’s inexcusable. So the best solution your god could come up with was torture?

JB

Hell is not only the best solution for punishing stubborn, impenitent sinners in the realm of eternity–it is the perfect solution.

TM

Torture is the best solution, in your opinion?

Thank you for proving my point.

JB

You are welcome.

—–

Toasty McGrath

So why do you choose to worship a god who tortures people for eternity?

OpenAirOutreach (Jesse Morrell)

I worship God for both His justice and His mercy. If you do not understand that you deserve eternal Hell for your sins, you do not yet understand just how bad your sins really are. And it is in light of how much we deserve eternal Hell that we see just how gracious and merciful God is by sending His Son to die for us for the forgiveness of sins.

It is not about a bad god who sends good men to Hell, but a good God who sends bad men to Hell. The only people God sends to Hell are those who deserve it. And God, in His love, is trying to save as many people from Hell as He wisely can.

TM

But you don’t think it’s immoral to torture people? I mean, I’m not sure you understand how bad THAT crime really is.

John Boruff

I’m not sure you understand how bad your SIN really is in the sight of an all-powerful, all-righteous, and all-wise God. In fact, its really very stupid. You should be more careful!

TM

So is it a sin to torture?

JB

Of course its a sin to torture people! I sure hope you’re not thinking of torturing me or Jesse for preaching the Gospel! We Christians suffer enough persecution already. I thought burning saints at the stake was a thing of the past!

Now, to shift back to the thought of God torturing people. No, it is not a sin for God to torture people, because God is totally righteous; and the only people He tortures are those whom He is overwhelmingly, incredibly, unthinkably, immeasurably, inconceivably angry at.

People such as unrepentant fornicators, idolators, adulterers, homosexuals, rapists, thieves, the greedy, drunks, mean-spirited people, extortioners, people ashamed of Christ, atheists (like yourself), haters, murderers, witches, liars, all kinds of the sexually immoral (non-marital), the jealous, bad-tempered people, selfish and ambitious people, divisive people, cult leaders, frat partiers, etc (Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Revelation 21:8).

TM

“It’s not evil when my god does it.”

The very definition of tyranny.

So if you agree that torture is immoral, but you worship a god who tortures people, that makes you a hypocrite, no?

JB

Perhaps by your standards. What are your standards?

TM

Well, one of them is the United States Constitution. The Eighth Amendment outlaws torture, for example.

JB

Indeed! Cruel and unusual punishment, such as burning saints at the stake, is always wrongly expressed while performed by the hands of men. But not God. I assume you are unaware that the framers of the Constitution abstracted their ideas about law and morals from the Church of England and the New England Puritans. I.e., the Bible.

TM

“It’s not evil when my god does it.”

The very definition of tyranny.

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About John Boruff

John Boruff is the founder of WesleyGospel.com, a husband, father, and sometimes an open air preacher. He graduated from UNC Pembroke in 2008 with a B.A. in Philosophy and Religion and views himself as a Wesleyan-Arminian Reformed Pentecostal. As a Christian, he feels connected with all members of the body of Christ, but can identify the most with churches like the Assemblies of God and the Vineyard. In 2015, he released "The Gospel of Jesus Christ," which is meant to be a Bible study for open air preaching. For his other writings, search articles on this site or see the E-Books section.
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